SPEAKER_05 0:24

Greetings, Andor Salutations, and welcome to Imbibe Cinema. I'm Jonathan C. Leggett, along with my co-hosts Michael Newans.

SPEAKER_02 0:31

Trisha Leggett.

SPEAKER_05 0:33

And in this episode, we're going to be discussing Scott Burns' The Report, currently available on Prime Video, while imbibing the Senator Cocktail. The recipe can be found as well as pictures on our website, which is imbibesinema.com. The Imbibe Cinema Podcast is brought to you by the Blue Whiskey Independent Film Festival, otherwise known as Bwiff. Our festival seeks independent character-driven films of all lengths, styles, and genres. To learn more, please visit us at WIF.com. Once again, that is BWIFF.com. It's dot net.

SPEAKER_02 1:11

We will try to self purchase.net. Total sighting.

SPEAKER_00 1:18

Fun fact. Did you know Cyber Monday is 14 years old? Yeah. And the fact that Cyber Monday 14 years ago is probably the time they stopped using the word cyber when talking about the internet.

SPEAKER_02 1:32

It's true. It is a little weird that it's still called Cyber Monday. Also because the deals start like on Black Friday.

SPEAKER_05 1:39

They don't even start on Black Friday November 1st.

SPEAKER_02 1:42

It's true. It's like, and now that Halloween's done.

SPEAKER_05 1:44

And even then I was in the Home Depot. Cyber November. Three days before Halloween, actually. No, it was the week before Halloween. And they'd already moved the Halloween stuff to like one corner of the front and everything was Christmas. And I'm like, seriously, guys?

SPEAKER_01 1:58

Same thing with Costco. They're like, screw this, next holiday.

SPEAKER_05 2:03

To which, of course, the turkeys are just being like, fuck you guys. We're next, assholes.

SPEAKER_00 2:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 2:09

We go in the never mind.

SPEAKER_00 2:11

Um, because it's no less no less politically correct than any of the other holidays.

SPEAKER_05 2:17

Speaking of politically correct. Do that politically. So I think that that we're we're we we we we can possibly do our best to not get too political over this film. Um but I I I found that even knowing what the result of this film was, that I I was still on the edge of my seat leading up to the end. That this this actually did a great job of of building the suspense.

SPEAKER_00 2:42

Kind of like Apollo 13 when I knew nothing about history and was like, they're gonna die. And I went, oh no, they didn't. Historical fun fact.

SPEAKER_05 2:50

Were you also confused by the end of Titanic?

SPEAKER_00 2:54

No, I knew that one.

SPEAKER_05 2:55

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_02 2:56

I did I don't think I knew either one. So I remember millennials. He was little. I remember when I went to go see well, I still remember this in the Daily Herald. There's this breakdown of like the picks, the passables, and the pits is the breakdown of like movies. Yep. And it was, you know, the picks are like three to four stars, and you know, passables are in the middle, and then there's the terrible movies. Okay. Anyway, in there it would explain what kind of movie it was, too. And they had misprinted Apollo 13 as a documentary. And I remember not knowing what a documentary was at that point.

SPEAKER_05 3:37

Oh, so you wanted to start making docs like immediately.

SPEAKER_02 3:40

Well, I asked, what is that? And then my mom was like, that's not right. That's a misprint because that's not a documentary. But anyway, so this ensued. I think Heather was in the room, or it may have been you, but I want to say We look a lot alike. Trisha and my sister, Heather, was in the room, and I want to say it was her that said, Oh yeah, they all died. And I was like, oh my God. And so the entire movie I was waiting for them to all die. So when they they didn't, spoiler for anybody, I guess, who hasn't seen the movie or was born too late. Too late.

SPEAKER_05 4:26

Um the uh Do you think she was thinking of Challenger?

SPEAKER_01 4:32

Uh I think I would be able to say great. I'm pretty sure. If it wasn't Heather, I totally would have done that.

unknown 4:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 4:39

Oh, you guys are so So anyway, I really think we should talk about the story of this film. Yes, of this film.

SPEAKER_01 4:47

Oh, all right.

SPEAKER_02 4:48

Fine.

SPEAKER_05 4:50

So uh Adam Driver plays Daniel Jones, and and the fact that this is historically probably drum yeah, dramatized. Uh it's based on a it's based on actual events.

SPEAKER_02 5:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:06

But there are certain things that I thought would have been that were dramatized when I'm watching and I'm like, alright, the CIA of course breaks into the room. But evidently they did that.

SPEAKER_03 5:14

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 5:14

Which is just, I'm sorry, if you're the CIA, isn't there a better way of doing that? Like a more subtle, like, you know, I'm not saying like there's a way where you could get uh Tom Cruise to like lower himself in from the ceiling, but you would think it'd be more spy-like than hey everybody, let's just open the door and walk in.

SPEAKER_02 5:34

It just seems like took the drive or whatever and then bursted bursted into the film, into the film, into the movie, into the what am I saying? What is this? It's a really good drink.

SPEAKER_01 5:46

It's a good drink.

SPEAKER_05 5:48

Yeah, the s the CIA is is doing everything they can to keep it going because they know that that if it's not actionable intelligence that they're getting, that they are breaking like Geneva conventions and all sorts of shit. So they have to keep playing it up that it is working when it's not.

SPEAKER_00 6:13

Which, you know, is not unique to the CIA. If you think about anybody who works at any company ever, whenever you have this big policy that spent a lot of money and a lot of hype to put it in, and then it like doesn't work, everybody like just doubles down on it because they don't want to admit something doesn't work. That's universal. Whether you're at the CIA or McDonald's.

SPEAKER_05 6:32

It's just it's a fairly different thing between like waterboarding uh some random person or putting a chicken nugget in a deep fryer. But you know, that might just be me.

SPEAKER_01 6:43

All right. I didn't mean to trivialize it. I meant to humanize it.

SPEAKER_02 6:47

Well, and the human the humanized part is Chicken Nuggets. You know, um I guess the the the big message uh is very basic in in in like even just an individual's journey. Um so uh you take, you know, the reaction, the overall reaction to 9-11 is anger and um helplessness. Right. And so um you have a number of individuals um who all reacted with emotion instead of Well, and they uh they they call out that they know that if it happens again, the CIA are on the chopping board.

SPEAKER_05 7:36

Well, and they're they're the ones who will go down for it happening again. So they have to figure out how to prevent it. And they're and they just go too far.

SPEAKER_00 7:45

There are two things I found very interesting about this uh in the film. Uh and the the first is when I I think it's Cheney, I can't remember who it is that they have on television in the background right after 9-11 where they're talking and he's and and they're talking about all the actionable information they had. We told you, we told you, we told you. And they didn't do anything. And so you have this moment where the CIA is like, no, we told you. And maybe not to this extent, but we told you. And then uh I had heard also uh outside of the film that there was so much information that had been it was like a needle in a haystack finding the right stuff and knowing what was ac actionable and what wasn't.

SPEAKER_02 8:24

Well, and also my understanding too is um the infighting between the FBI and the CIA created a massive problem, a massive internal issue, which is what prior to? Prior to.

SPEAKER_00 8:36

Oh. Territorial thing.

SPEAKER_02 8:38

Yeah, turf war for sure.

SPEAKER_00 8:40

Which is interesting because you think of of those um uh of those groups, uh you would think the uh CIA and the uh FBI having a turf war, um, and the NSA is just like hanging out, eating popcorn, like not there. Listening. Listening to everybody just chilling. Um yeah, but backtracking. So the the head of the meeting they have, uh, and then he says, you know, uh, I've talked with him from the White House, and there's gonna be no change in anything. I thought it's very interesting. Because normally, like, with anything going wrong anywhere, people be like, your head is on a block. Right. Or we are changing management.

SPEAKER_03 9:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:20

And here they were like, no, we're not gonna look back, we're not gonna point fingers, we're not gonna sign plane, we're gonna move forward. And I thought, what a grown-up like moment. And and then it's followed by no other grown-up moment by the government.

SPEAKER_05 9:32

No, no other grown-up moment. And then the the thing that of course got me is when they're you know ta splashing the the what has happened since you know the the whole release of it. No one in the CIA uh was fired, no one was reprimanded, no one were promoted. Some people were promoted.

SPEAKER_00 9:51

Which is horrific. And that's that like that's that's where you're like, oh well, you went from go grown-up moments to but then speaking of grown-up moments, another you know, because this is a very dark, heavy film, and it deals because it deals with such terrible material, right? I mean, as in horrifying, right? And uh the uh the beginning where he first meets uh John Hamm's character who is the uh future chief of staff. Yeah, he's the future chief of staff of um Obama.

SPEAKER_05 10:19

Uh John Hamm is uh Dennis McDonough.

SPEAKER_00 10:22

And uh so he talks about how he started out being a teacher, and John Hamm's like, oh, so you work well with children, that'll become one handy on the hill. Yeah. Yeah. And and then in in just joking about how you're dealing with a bunch of children running the country, right? Uh when we make jokes about that because they don't play nice together, right? Uh and then uh you have this moment with the snow globe, which I thought was kind of sweet that he comes in and he's he's like a kid. He's got his backpack and he's looking at the DC stuff and he's got his little snow globe, and it's kind of that um reconnaissance. Uh yeah, it's that Mr. Smith goes to Washington, it's that Frank Caparesque kind of feel, uh, and then the snow globe is just left behind. Yeah, with the trash kind of and it's like, and this is the loss of it, this is where it starts.

SPEAKER_05 11:11

I I do think one thing that that that made me especially happy about this film is that at the same time, you know, obviously with with uh uh Diane Feinstein uh or Feinstein, um, you know, uh the one who's leading this and and the fact that it's it's mostly uh Democrats that that uh Dan is is working with, they do a very good job of not necessarily patting uh the Democrats on the back and going, Good job, you guys did everything right, because they do talk about how the Obama administration uh you know failed in this or or that they, you know, because of killing Osama bin Laden, that they don't, you know, they're they're not going to try to uh uh raise too much awareness because that just bought him a re-election. And you know, it's burying the bury the information we can.

SPEAKER_00 12:11

The first thing we we can't do, the first thing is is point fingers. But I also think it's interesting when they talk about how like how did this how did they get away with this? How did they get the uh the approval, the access, the rights to do this these horrible things? And it's like, well, you find out Bush didn't know, Colin Powell didn't know. Right. It's like the people in charge uh that should know did not know for the longest time.

SPEAKER_05 12:33

And so you're like And when they were finally told, they weren't necessarily told everything. It was years later. Decisions in the wrong room uh that never went up the proper chain of commands.

SPEAKER_00 12:45

Right. And then uh so it's an interesting different look at the way government works. It was very interesting to see this kind of thing, and then it had the a feel of um all the presidents meant to me.

SPEAKER_03 12:57

Yeah, mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 12:58

Yeah, I made that um that connection in my mind as I was watching it as well. Um, and finding it how like how interesting is it that you have a situation so many years apart that has the same type of feel, like the same type of thing could continually happen, and they remark on that too in the movies numerous times.

SPEAKER_05 13:22

We uh repeat the past because maybe we didn't learn from them.

SPEAKER_02 13:25

Right. We didn't listen the first time.

SPEAKER_05 13:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:28

No, I also think it's interesting that like uh you look at scandals as far as things go where the government lies to us and then we go, What? Excuse us? Uh what did what did what did what happened? Uh and uh uh Watergate being one of those instances uh from all the presidents men. Uh and uh it's from the movie. It didn't really happen. Uh but you know how united the country got about that. You know the the big wake-up call of Wa, whoa, whoa, whoa, what are you guys doing? You're not supposed to be doing that. And then nowadays where the report comes out and there is kind of a I can't and then we just all move on. And how that didn't have the weight that it did.

SPEAKER_02 14:07

Well, and the just the amount of information there is um now available at your fingertips, there's gonna be something else that's gonna cloud it. Yep. Not only the next day, but in the next hour.

SPEAKER_05 14:24

Minutes later they bury the lead. And then there's also gaslighting.

SPEAKER_02 14:28

I have right. Well and I have uh, you know, I have uh I subscribe to Washington Post, and so I get probably you know, three to four push notifications from them a day.

SPEAKER_05 14:44

Um desensitized.

SPEAKER_02 14:47

Yeah. Now what would be interesting is if I had this for more than the last year, if that's typical. Or if, you know, prior to 2016 that would happen.

SPEAKER_00 15:04

The 24 uh hour news cycle was a lot of there are there cats in your escalator?

SPEAKER_05 15:10

Yeah. Are there cats in your escalator? That's creepy.

SPEAKER_00 15:13

Well, no, I mean just a lot of the, you know, is your cat killing you? Yeah. Does the escalator kill you? Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 15:19

Has your goldfish turned into a crocodile?

SPEAKER_00 15:22

Right. A lot of crazy news.

SPEAKER_05 15:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:24

Um and then of course if you look at Michael Moore's film uh Bowling for Columbine, where he talks about the news being uh pretty much uh a symptom or maybe a virus, I'm not sure, of of the fear of our neighbors and how Canada like breaking news downtown, news speed bumps. Wow, I wish our news was that exciting. I really wish it wasn't that exciting. That'd be great.

SPEAKER_05 15:48

Yeah. Right. Dull local news would be wonderful. It would it would probably calm a lot of people.

SPEAKER_00 15:54

Is there a place on earth called Mayberry? Or is it a fictitious like town? Like I know it is, but like is there a real Mayberry out there? I'm sure. Somewhere. People are searching for it. Back to Torture. Oh, okay. So very few, very besides me talking, very few thank you. Uh very few of the uh are there light moments, I guess, in this film where you could go, huh? And to me, one of them was the first uh instance that you have the first detainee before he becomes a detainee when he's first arrested and the FBI has him, and they're trying to build a rapport with him. And so it's like the first time you see somebody and you're like, oh, is it gonna be tortured or not? Oh my god, and they're giving him medical assistance and they're talking to him, and and it's it's not like you know, uh a four-star hotel stay, but it looks like we're training him very humanely. Right. And then the first thing that they like they can I get you a Pepsi? And I'm like, Oh, did Coke finance this film? Is this the first moment of torture offering the man a Pepsi? Like, seriously, who does that? Doesn't Coke own everything?

SPEAKER_05 17:01

That that was actually where it all started, right there. They they got the whole idea of torturing them just from that one.

SPEAKER_00 17:07

Yeah, it's like Pepsi? Oh no. Is Pepsi okay? So another thing is when you talk about doing a based on actual events storyline, uh, the good news is you kind of have the story already built for you, and then you have to make it intense. And and this one covered what, six years? Yeah, and to kind of keep track of it uh is uh it's interesting how they did that with the pacing. The idea of trying to keep that interesting, and then there's just so much um details that it's all it's all paperwork and trying to make those faces be people, and how much torture do you implement in uh for the audience to visualize to to see? And I think that was very important that they show some of it, not not to horrify us, not to not gratuitously, but to to make because if you just talk about it, the gravity of it won't be there. You have to see human beings suffering to go, oh my god, human beings are suffering.

SPEAKER_05 18:06

Yeah. Now I'm trying to recall because the the the the biggest situation that happens is that he gets his hands on the CIA's internal report. Yeah, if something gets sent to him accidentally, and that's so that and then they they think that he got they talk about how it's like it was an accident or was a whistleblower.

SPEAKER_00 18:27

We don't know if somebody sent it or it was an accident.

SPEAKER_05 18:29

Yeah, Dan was discussing with with with with Feinstein whether or not he's like, I I don't know how it ended up in the in the pile because they had already the CIA was also going to pre-screening it, vetting the stuff before sending it to him, which is somebody dumped this. Yeah, so then the question becomes you know, and we we we don't know in the film whether or not it was a whistleblower or somebody screwed up and sent it to him. But he gets blamed for hacking the the CIA to get that information. Yeah, when when he could not have done that if he tried apparently.

SPEAKER_02 19:06

Um Right, he does not, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 19:09

Yeah, he said I think he jokes that uh he his his computer skills uh stop beyond Microsoft Word.

SPEAKER_00 19:15

Uh oh, another thing is I mean, no nobody at the uh at the podcast here tonight has read the book. We've all just seen the movie, right? Um I think it's another interesting choice. A lot of films like this, uh, or like uh the other one I would think of besides Other President's men is the the JFK one with uh Kevin Costner who is at the Oliver Stone movie. Yeah, JFK. JFK. There you go. Um where you're following a lot of historical facts and instances. But in this case, like because you're getting one person's point of view, that's your gateway into it.

SPEAKER_02 19:48

Um your narrative is biased to that person's perspective.

SPEAKER_00 19:52

Exactly. I find it very interesting. They kept his personal life out of it. No, no friends, no family, no.

SPEAKER_02 19:58

No, you didn't have a personal life according to the story. Yeah, that's also true.

SPEAKER_00 20:02

But the fact that it is all really about the report, even though um, you know, there are a lot of instances where you have the reporter or you have the investigator, and then your their life and how it's affected by, but this is strictly about the actual report. Even though it's written uh the book, the material comes from the gentleman who wrote the report. So it's interesting that he didn't uh put anything like that forward or that the director didn't, that they made it all about the report itself.

SPEAKER_02 20:31

At some point that was uh a decision, regardless of whether or not it wasn't in the book at all. It was a decision to also not include that in the script or to add that into the script to you know to m you know furthermore humanize him and make him more relatable. Instead, I liked the other direction, full out workaholic, yeah, and that that exchange where you know he doesn't even realize how soon Thanksgiving is. Yes. He has no idea.

SPEAKER_00 21:07

No, that's that's next week. Right. Yeah. Or the fact that uh in the beginning he's told, you know, you gotta you gotta stay calm, you gotta stay detached, you can't get emotional, you can't get and then you watch him get more and more, and to a point where he, you know, who do you work for? Do you work for the reporter or do you work for me? Right. Think about that. Yeah. Get back to me. Uh, because he gets very challenging. And I do think it's very interesting that, and I would be interested to know if this was uh for the purpose of the film, or if this is something that he really considered doing was the talking to the reporter and then deciding to trust uh that they would do the right thing, that they would be able to do the right thing.

SPEAKER_02 21:47

That's actually the scene I think that made me think so much about um uh all the president's men was it's like you have this. Opportunity to connect with the press to get this out in the public. But we've seen in the past that this doesn't play out right. Um and so he has this big moment where he's gotta decide what which which which route is he he gonna take. And a lot of that I think is driven by by obviously his frustration, but his can I see this through? Because I don't know if I'll if it'll ever see the light of day uh at this point. The sprinklings of of comedy. Yeah. It's funny, um the what was it, like a PBS news hour thing that we watched. Um how the You were putting the children to bed.

SPEAKER_05 22:58

Oh, thanks.

SPEAKER_02 23:00

Oh, I assumed that's the back.

SPEAKER_00 23:02

We watch PBS.

SPEAKER_05 23:04

Dick Moose, Anna.

SPEAKER_02 23:06

The um it was an interview with the the director, the writer director, and the the real guy, the guy that wrote the book. Oh, okay. Um and so he makes the comment, which I was a little surprised by where he's like, when I first read it, I um I interpreted it as a like a dark comedy.

SPEAKER_00 23:30

Oh, comedy of errors. He said it was a dark comedy, dark comedy of errors. And he's like, and it kind of sucks me. Not at the moment, like in it didn't feel like it, but looking back, yeah, it kind of kinda was that.

SPEAKER_02 23:44

But anyway, I was I was very jarred by that because I was like, oh, I wouldn't have I wouldn't call this I wouldn't put comedy anywhere near this movie just continuously bumbling over themselves.

SPEAKER_00 23:58

Well, yeah, and the fact that when you see that much uh incompetence, well, not just well, yeah, incompetence and just misstep and mistake and wrong interpretation over and over and over in like a series, you're like, this is ridiculous.

SPEAKER_05 24:13

Knowing full well that you should not the the CIA should not go into that room. It is sealed by the Senate.

SPEAKER_00 24:19

You are breaking the power struggle that is. That's the moment in the PBS special where he was like, and we're like, that's a movie. Like, people don't do that. That's not real. It's like a movie.

SPEAKER_05 24:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:30

And that's but no, if it was a movie, Tom Cruise would have come in from the ceiling. It's true.

SPEAKER_02 24:35

He would have.

SPEAKER_01 24:37

They would have gotten him an independent contractor.

SPEAKER_02 24:41

Why is there a rat inside the vent? That has always bothered me. Right? How dirty? Why is there a rat in the vent? It just doesn't sound right.

SPEAKER_05 24:55

Not to mention why did you have to kill it? But no, like why did you have to kill it?

SPEAKER_00 25:03

No, um ratatouille. For the insult of ratatouille. Um He is no chef. Um, that I mean, Bruce Willis went through several vents and in in in Austin. No ratling no rats.

SPEAKER_05 25:17

Right. He knows what a TV dinner feels like, though.

SPEAKER_00 25:20

And it was not rat-infested. Thank God.

SPEAKER_04 25:23

Christmas movie. It's a good Christmas movie. Kiss Miss Bang Bang. One of my favorites. Also Christmas movie.

unknown 25:29

Sorry.

SPEAKER_00 25:31

Guns and Christmas. I just, you know, leave to the other one. Anyway. Yeah. Is this our Christmas movie? Because that would be so sad. No. No.

SPEAKER_05 25:39

No, we I think that ship has sailed. Uh we're going to take a few more minutes uh to uh fill our glasses with another senator and uh get ready to imbibe more after this.

SPEAKER_02 25:52

Hey there listener. This is Michael with Imbibe Cinema and the Blue Whiskey Independent Film Festival. Did you know that Imbibe Cinema isn't just a podcast? We've also got a variety of articles and reviews available to read on our website, plus a streaming membership that gives you access to a new batch of independent films every month. Become an Imbibe Cinema member today at watch.imbibesinema.com. That's watch.imbibesinema.com. Thanks for supporting and imbibing the various content we offer. Now, back to the show. Are we back? We could be back.

SPEAKER_05 26:33

You're listening to Imbibe Cinema. I'm Jonathan C. Leggett. I'm here along with Michael Nowans.

SPEAKER_02 26:39

Trisha Leggett. Trisha's eating what?

SPEAKER_00 26:42

I'm butterscotching it up because I'm an old lady. But I took the wrapper off first.

SPEAKER_01 26:50

Hey, hey, hey.

SPEAKER_05 26:54

And we are discussing the report. Enjoying our podcast? Enjoying the old lady? Please subscribe or follow us at all your favorite podcast providers to get new episodes as soon as we release them, which is every fortnight.

SPEAKER_04 27:08

Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey.

SPEAKER_05 27:12

Rate or leave us a review to help our show reach a larger audience. Or you can also follow us on Imbibe Cinema on Facebook and the Twitters. So before the break, we were uh we had been talking about story, but uh, you know, I really think that that we need to talk about this exceptional cast and crew. Um uh Adam Driver, I I would watch him eat a bowl of cereal. Um I think I said this on a previous podcast, too.

SPEAKER_02 27:38

About somebody else eating a bowl of cereal.

SPEAKER_05 27:40

Also eating a bowl of cereal. What is it with me watching people eat bowls of cereal?

SPEAKER_02 27:43

But I'm trying to remember that's where my mind immediately went was who else can watch eat a bowl of bowl of cereal?

SPEAKER_00 27:50

But uh yeah. People have their their uh fantasy like dinner party where like what famous people would you invite? We all know they're having cereal.

SPEAKER_05 27:58

Yes. Well, I mean, if if I'm gonna have a dinner party with these people, like I could do a whole like you know, five course meal, but that would mean that would mean I'd be I'd be I'd be having to cook. Right. And I'd much rather have a conversation with these people. So just you know, bowl of cereal, milk, let's talk. You know, like screw screw the cooking. That that fuck that nonsense.

SPEAKER_02 28:22

Um cater cereal? I don't understand. Just seems like a wisdom.

SPEAKER_05 28:28

Whit air. Uh wait air. Can you get my Captain DeCrunch?

SPEAKER_02 28:33

So Adam Driver. Fantastic. Physically, he is locked into a particular look because of Star Wars. And so he has like his hair is is a longer length. Um, and um it you know what I mean? Like you he he has a very, very specific uh look that he's locked into because of that. And so watching him in this, and I know you guys haven't seen Marriage Story yet, but seeing him in that, um, and then knowing, you know, hey, this is also the appearance of his uh of his look as uh Kylo Wren, totally completely different characters. You buy in the entire time, like you're just throwing a suit on him in one, uh like a sweater on in another, and then you know, well Kylo Wren's eye. Kylo Wren.

SPEAKER_04 29:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:28

But uh, you know, it's just interesting to me because you see m more often than not, I mean, a an actor will kind of transform themselves into more of this particular type of character. And they're it's not like he's wearing glasses or anything like that.

SPEAKER_05 29:45

It's it's just intensity, physicality, it's just him.

SPEAKER_02 29:49

And uh yeah, uh wildly different characters and military training, remarkable, just a remarkable performance in all of them. Um I think uh I mean, after seeing both of them, I was like, he could be nominated for best actor for both of these films.

SPEAKER_05 30:07

Yeah. Um so obviously, uh I always love watching John Ham. Um especially um in those instances where he's not being uh funny. Um uh John Hamm in this, obviously more akin to his madman character, um, than possibly like, I don't know, tag uh where he love being able to say that. That was actually an okay movie. I enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_02 30:37

Yeah. The whole cast actually, uh, well uh a number of them aren't, you know, um necessarily big, big names that would headline a movie. It's one of those, I mean, being drawn more to independent films, each and every one of them, Corey Stoll, Ned Benning, uh, Michael C. Hall. Yep. Uh they all, you know, they're I was like, oh wow, this is just such a great lineup.

SPEAKER_00 31:06

Now the two gentlemen but played the psychologists.

SPEAKER_05 31:09

Uh T. Ryder Smith and Douglas Hodge. Or as or as I put on my little notes here, D-bag number one and D-bag number two.

SPEAKER_00 31:18

Yes. Yes. Because they did an amazing job of making you hate them. Just oh my God. And and the one guy talking about himself in the third person, you're like, how did anybody think this was a good idea to get this guy like any level of power?

SPEAKER_05 31:32

James woke up after 9-11 and James said it's like, um, this would have been red flag number one to me. James needed to stop talking about James in the third person because you are not somebody I want torturing somebody. I'm sorry, enhanced uh interrogation.

SPEAKER_00 31:48

No, yeah, though and and the uh the director, uh Scott in PBS interview, they say that uh, you know, they ask about uh what drew him to making this movie, and he said uh that he grew up with two parents who were both uh were they psychologists, therapists in that genre. And he so he would grew up at at a young age knowing about this profession and about you know that it's used to help people. And then when he read about these two men uh using it to uh weaponize something that's meant to help people, he w he he was drawn in by that. He couldn't believe how horrific that is that anybody would do that. And uh and that's that was the uh starting off point. And they really are to me the villains of the piece. When you watch the report, I can understand where everybody is coming from. I even almost understand where they're coming from. But uh I I still think like they're evil.

SPEAKER_05 32:57

Yeah, they they they they're gonna be able to do that.

SPEAKER_00 32:58

And then they were like eighty million dollars they got paid to like destroy people. Of forces them which were never supposed to be detained. Nobody I mean, we could go on and on about how horrible it was and and what they did was inexcusable, unforgivable, all this kind of stuff, and then we just you know let them go with lots of money.

SPEAKER_05 33:14

Yeah, the And I'm sure they're fine. The the the only question that I'm left asking about those two characters um is how they got introduced to the top brass at the CIA.

SPEAKER_02 33:26

How they got in that room.

SPEAKER_05 33:27

How they got in that room, because I understand what like the pitch that they made, but I want to know who who was like, oh, I see how Spector introduced them.

SPEAKER_00 33:38

Well, he and so-and-so said they had the special sauce. She was impressed by them, and then they're like, Well, get them in here. And I get you have nowhere to go, you have like your training has not brought you to chicken with heads cut off.

SPEAKER_05 33:52

We had no idea. We have no idea what to do.

SPEAKER_00 33:54

Yeah, and we're gonna jump on the first, but I mean, God, those people research. I love how they keep saying the entire film, they keep saying, Well, the science behind it, there's no fucking science behind it. Yeah, it's disgusting.

SPEAKER_03 34:07

Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:09

That they were uh put in such a position where they had so much power and it was unchecked, and that nobody uh really supervised or or went, you know what, you guys aren't qualified to do that, or just the the entire thing. It's it's horrendous.

SPEAKER_02 34:24

Well the fact that yeah, the fact that it went on so long without results.

SPEAKER_00 34:29

That it even was introduced as being okay or an idea that we should do, considering they tried it in Vietnam. They tried it, and every time you torture people, it doesn't work. And by the way, hey, you know who's famous for doing this? The Nazis. Is that the kind of company you want to keep?

SPEAKER_05 34:48

So I I I love how this film was shot. He was the cinematographer for In Bruges.

SPEAKER_02 34:54

Oh beautifully shot.

SPEAKER_05 34:56

Yes, as well as The Wizard of Lies, which was a uh a television film uh movie, uh, as well as uh Oceans Eight.

SPEAKER_02 35:05

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 35:07

So I'm like he he did a great job of keeping the suspense, of keeping everything just really from from a lighting perspective, it was very intense.

SPEAKER_00 35:20

Yeah, it was well and the music as well.

SPEAKER_05 35:22

It was gritty.

SPEAKER_02 35:24

It had a gritty feel to it.

SPEAKER_00 35:26

Uh how how was the hook? Did you have a hook moment? Oh I know we started at the beginning. Uh the beginning in the middle, right? Because he's talking to the lawyer in the beginning of the film.

SPEAKER_05 35:37

No, almost the end. It's almost the end, and then he's like, 'cause that's where he's already being called out. It's right just about before he goes to the the uh the reporter.

SPEAKER_00 35:47

Who happens to be the same reporter from Won't You Be My Neighbor?

SPEAKER_03 35:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:53

Oh.

SPEAKER_02 35:53

I was looking this up, sorry. It was shot on an uh RE Alexa Mini. Oh. Which is not film.

SPEAKER_00 36:01

Oh my god, that is such a tiny camera.

SPEAKER_02 36:04

It's an Alexa Mini.

SPEAKER_04 36:06

Alexa.

SPEAKER_02 36:07

Not Alexa. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:09

Oh, so now I can hear you.

SPEAKER_04 36:11

Great. Alexa, start recording.

SPEAKER_00 36:14

Action. I don't know. Alexa, say action.

SPEAKER_04 36:17

Alexa, give me playback. Alexa, check the gate.

SPEAKER_02 36:21

I can't I can't remember uh a particular hook moment for me. I think I think I mean I was excited to see this movie. Um not necessarily because of the subject matter, but because um because of the cast, because of how compelling the trailer was cut together, and uh like my mind went to All the President's Men, Spotlight, those kind of movies. And um I've had like this desire to see more movies like that, with that like almost like um Aaron Sorkin style dialogue where it is uh it's it's wordy, but it's it's very like driven. Like every word that's coming out of each character's mouth is propelling the story forward. It's not we're not just bantering, we're not Tarantinoed bantering right now. Um, and as enjoyable as that is. Um but uh yeah, I think that that that is what really kind of pulled me in, and that's why I was like, you know what, I I have an opportunity to see this movie in the in the theater, I have to go. Right.

SPEAKER_05 37:37

So well, go ahead. I was gonna say I know that you had wanted this on the list after you had seen it. You wanted Trisha and I to see it as soon as it came out on Amazon. Um and I remember you specifically saying something about the very end for you that really did something.

SPEAKER_02 37:54

And uh wanted It was the it was the scene, it wasn't it wasn't necessarily the the very end, but it was towards the end of the film. It's the scene we're listening to McCain.

SPEAKER_00 38:05

Yeah, that was something I always talked about.

SPEAKER_02 38:08

It was just beautifully done. Yeah, the way that they they incorporated that into the film. Yeah, I was like, you know what, I don't want to say anything about it because I don't want to I don't want to affect that moment as you're watching it. No, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 38:20

That was interesting because you have historic figures played by actors in the film.

SPEAKER_03 38:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:25

One of the things I think it's hard to do when you have uh a historical based on actual events kind of uh story that you were telling is not to have a biased point of view, especially a political point of view. And I thought that, and I'm one of those people that's hypersensitive to that, I'm always looking for it because I don't want to be taken for a ride and not know who the driver is in a way. I want to be like, I can agree with you or disagree with you, but I know so well played. I want to show it, don't say Adam, don't say Adam, don't say Adam. It's all of these tonight. Yes. Any hoozles. So what I'm trying to say is I think it's very interesting that yes, there are viewpoints, but there is no uh we're better than you or kind of moment in the film at all. I do think the only time in which I see the filmmaker truly having a statement about any political figure in our recent history is that moment. Because uh, you know, we have Feinstein Feinstein, Feinstein, she's fine. Um, and you have Obama, you have Bush, you have Ot Cheney, you have all these m huge figures throughout the course of these many years. And this is the only moment where it's kind of like it's almost this is a national hero, and we're gonna have this moment where we just step back and let him talk because nothing could it it didn't seem like there's this moment we're just gonna stop and take a breath and just it it was it was and again of all of the poignant people to have be the second or the the the uh the co-signer of that bill, it's a P.O.W. A man who's been tortured, yes.

SPEAKER_05 40:22

Who had an opportunity to come home because his father was and he said without he wouldn't leave.

SPEAKER_00 40:32

He wouldn't go left him behind.

SPEAKER_05 40:36

I mean like you know, I I know some people after m McCain passed had all sorts of weird things that they had. That that man was easily one of the last great statesman great statesmen that that this country has ever had. Um hopefully not the last. Hopefully not the last, but right now we're definitely in a turf war of turf wars um between two political parties.

SPEAKER_00 41:01

Um of the off-years.

SPEAKER_05 41:04

But but I mean it like just it yeah, it was absolutely beautiful. And I I I figured that was the the the scene that I really wanted to confirm. Yeah. Um but yeah, no, listening to to John.

SPEAKER_02 41:15

It was not it was not only a pivotal point I I feel in the story, which is why we kind of take this moment, but also it's like we ever so slightly stepped into a moment where we're just kind of instead of having an actor play him, um we're just honoring we're honoring him. Yeah. Um through this speech. Yes. Um, and I just thought I I thought it was a beautiful moment.

SPEAKER_00 41:41

And it it was apparent, I think, in the and I don't know how it is, but it's like um the editing uh in a film, the way we're uh trained uh to uh it's like grammar. Editing is grammar, right? And so it will lead us down all kinds of paths where we'll see one thing and see another, and then we'll draw the conclusion that we're meant to draw. And just the lead-in before he speaks, you know it it felt like they were just the the whole the whole production was stepping back and going, okay, now the senator from Arizona. And now we're gonna have this. It was it was so intense, just the brief moment before he speaks, that you're kind of like, Whoa, I just got taken out of the movie for reality for a minute.

SPEAKER_05 42:23

Yeah, beautiful.

SPEAKER_02 42:26

Okay. Um let's take a look at a few rotten reviews of this movie and what some uh critics have said.

SPEAKER_05 42:35

Please tell me there's a few of them. Like very few of them.

SPEAKER_02 42:41

So uh Roger Ebert.com is dead so uh This is real weird that he's reviewing it. From Beyond the Grave. Rogerebert.com says it's an unimpeachable cast doing solid work with weighty material. If only the film as a whole weren't so deadly dull.

SPEAKER_00 43:01

This is so funny, because it's a film about torture. But evidently the only torture is that review. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_05 43:13

Damn.

SPEAKER_00 43:14

Sorry.

SPEAKER_05 43:15

I didn't see that tree sprout, but look, there's a whole shit ton of shade now.

SPEAKER_00 43:21

I'm sorry, go ahead. Next.

SPEAKER_02 43:23

Next uh Arizona Republic says uh if only anything committed to screen here were memorable.

SPEAKER_04 43:33

Okay, wow.

SPEAKER_02 43:34

All right, well, final one here from film spotting. For a movie that takes such a clinical and cynical approach, the swelling strings underlying the oratory coming from the floor of the Senate feels false. They have a theosaurus, they like to use Tony Tell.

SPEAKER_06 43:55

So so they're like this movie was great, but then they put violins under John McCain. They don't know. What they're doing. It's like, what the fuck?

SPEAKER_00 44:01

No, this is somebody whose poetry is not taking off the way they want it. And this swelling strings underlying the oratory. I give all of these critics credit because it's hard to say you don't like something creatively new every single time.

SPEAKER_05 44:17

In in in something that would score high on a scrabble board.

SPEAKER_00 44:22

Right? Again, Theosaurus. If you can't enjoy a good story without, you know, going through with a red pen, that's you're missing out on a good story.

SPEAKER_02 44:34

Well, and that's that's my feeling with um a movie like John Carter, a movie that that most uh critics hated. And I I understand why they didn't like the movie. I get it. But I choose to see what Andrew Stanton was trying to do with this movie and the cool story that he was telling. And he did so many things right with it, but there were like so many little little threads that critics were like, Well, I'm gonna pull on that and I'm gonna pull on that, and just undid the whole movie. Um, instead of just enjoying the movie.

SPEAKER_05 45:13

So that to me is the Indiana Jones for I'm here to enjoy a summer movie. This is not an Indiana Jones movie, and I was able to enjoy it. We greatly appreciate all of our listeners for choosing this podcast and for supporting independent films in general. Keep an ear out for our next episode to check out our show notes or to just drop us a note, please visit us at imbibesinema.com. Once again, I am Jonathan C. Leggett, and thanks again for imbibing with us.

SPEAKER_06 45:40

Cheers