Imbibe Cinema
Imbibe Cinema swaps stuffy movie reviews for genuine film appreciation with themed libations. Hosts Jonathan C. Legat and Tricia Legat — along with a variety of special guests — pick a particular film they love for each episode and break down why it’s noteworthy while enjoying a drink specially selected to complement the movie. Listeners are encouraged to watch the subject of discussion, grab a delicious libation, and imbibe great cinema with us!
Imbibe Cinema
Superman
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Superman has returned to theaters and James Gunn's fresh vision delivers exactly what the Man of Steel deserves — a film that understands what makes this character special after nearly a century in popular culture.
In this episode, co-hosts Jonathan C. Legat and Tricia Legat, and producer Michael Noens discuss how the film embraces Superman's fundamental optimism without feeling naive. Gunn's Superman stands apart by genuinely believing in humanity's potential for good.
Remember to imbibe responsibly! If you haven't seen "Superman," watch the film before you listen to the episode.
Looking for more episode content? Read the Episode Recap, including links to episode references and the ingredients for this episode's featured cocktail.
To begin your Imbibe Cinema membership through the Blue Whiskey Independent Film Festival, visit imb.watch/membership.
Featuring Music by Soldier Story: "Bring Down the Money (Freedom)"
Superman Trivia and Introductions
Speaker 1Okay , so which Superman had Russell Crowe as his dad ?
Speaker 2That is that one . Yeah , that is man of Steel .
Speaker 1Okay , and then which one had Kevin Costner as his dad ? No , okay , oh , there were both Jesus Christ , so Russell Crowe is his real father .
Speaker 3Kevin Costner is the man who raises him and gets nom-noms , but they were both .
Speaker 4Robin .
Speaker 3Hood , when was ?
Speaker 2Russell Crowe , robin Hood , relatively recently .
Speaker 3You're shiting me .
Speaker 2No , I'm not .
Speaker 3So confused . This was 20-fucking-10? . Was I dead ? Greetings and or salutations , and welcome to Imbibe Cinema . The Imbibe Cinema podcast is brought to you by the Blue Whiskey Independent Film Festival , otherwise known as BWF . I'm Jonathan C Leggett , along with my co-host , Trisha Leggett , as well as our producer .
Speaker 2Michael Nowens .
Speaker 3In this episode we are going to be discussing the 2025 Superman slash DCU James Gunn reboot . The cocktail we are imbibing is called the Superman . It has grenadine and coconut vodka , or , in this case , coconut rum , and blue curacao and pineapple juice . It is quite a pretty drink , very patriotic , and that goes along with the true justice and the American way , although that particular phrase has changed many times over the long storied career of superman , in which it has been in just truth and justice . Truth justice , the american way . It has been a fight for truth , justice , the american way . Truth , justice and freedom . Truth Justice , the American Way . Truth Justice and Freedom , justice and Peace for All Mankind . These have all been like in the 1970s , so it has changed a lot over the extensive yeah , rebranding .
Speaker 3But anyway , the recipe , as well as pictures , are available on our website , imbibecinemacom . In addition to this podcast , we also offer a variety of short and feature length independent films that you can enjoy for free , but when you become an InBive Cinema member , you get access to monthly limited releases . To learn more and begin your membership , visit InBiveCinemacom .
Speaker 2You know this is good . We're continuing season three and keeping the tradition of John basically being one drink in as we start .
Speaker 3And I doubled mine . It's an Emmy .
Speaker 2It was an accident and you can watch it on our Instagram in real time .
Speaker 3An accident the actual oops moment . Yeah , the realization . This is not going to fit , unless I go red , red , red , red , red , red , blue , anyway .
Speaker 2So that's a pop quiz . What movie is that referencing ? Very loosely , very loosely , text us about that next time .
Speaker 3Well , hell , let's start with a question to each of us . And we'll start with Trish , who is your Superman .
Speaker 1Well , I think in my case it's more of the first Superman imprinted on me and that's like baby chick , like
The Superman Cocktail and Podcast Intro
Speaker 1Christopher Reeves , okay yeah , and I have enjoyed Superman 3 because I was a kid and Richard Pryor is funny . In the eighties kids could watch . For those of us old enough to remember , that was the first big superhero movie , um , and that came out in 78 .
Speaker 2Yeah , 78 . That sounds right . So did we can . Yes , you came out in 78 too .
Speaker 1That's why he's my favorite , and Superman 3 came out in 1983 . Right , and for those of us who were that age , it was great yeah .
Speaker 3Did you enjoy Superman 4 ? I don't remember 4 . Okay , that's probably a good thing .
Speaker 1I hear it was Superman 4? .
Speaker 3Superman 4 iconically is Christopher .
Speaker 1Reeves' Swan Song . It's the end of the Christopher Reeves movies and it has a whole star lineup Cryers in it .
Speaker 3Yeah , john Cryers in it . Jim Hackman , margot Kidder , margot Kidder , jackie Cooper , what's her name ? Mark ?
Speaker 1McClure .
Speaker 3Mariel .
Speaker 1Hemingway . Yes , wait , the bad guy is his name , pillow Mark .
Speaker 3Pillow . Yes , mark , pillow Mark .
Speaker 1Pillow .
Speaker 3He plays a nuclear man who is the clone of . Superman .
Speaker 1I do not remember this movie but luckily we watched Chad the Bird , who I'm a big fan of . Always fun facts and he talks about how people say this is the worst film and he's like and that is not true , because the worst Superman movie ever made is Superman 4 . And then he breaks down why and he makes some valid points Enough for you to be like maybe I need to see it but I shouldn't . But it's like bad .
Speaker 2Yeah , I've never seen it . I've never seen it . I don't think I've seen two , three or four . I think I've just seen the original Superman .
Speaker 1Oh , I think you've seen two .
Speaker 2If I've seen two . I just don't remember it . But I do know . I do know that there was a lot of behind the scenes drama with Superman and the you know the whole infamous Donner cut situation , because they had filmed pieces of Superman and Superman 2 at the same time . Right and another director came in and finished Superman and there are sequences where they couldn't get Gene Hackman , and so there are sequences of the movie where either it's not Gene Hackman there or it is Gene Hackman there and it's somebody else voicing Gene Hackman . It's fascinating , oh wow , because they were doing something slightly different and it's done in a way where you , you don't even , you don't even realize it until it's pointed out to you . There's a video that I found that that does this . I can share that to our listeners so you can check that out and and it's super fascinating , I think to watch the movie after having all these things pointed out to you I do remember hearing there was a lot of like , well , it's gonna be silly , it's gonna , and yet they approached it .
Speaker 1Which such ?
Speaker 2this is mythos , this is huge , this is like serious you will believe a man can fly is like the whole slogan that yeah , that's the tagline . You think this is ridiculous , but you will believe it .
Speaker 1Yeah , we're going to sell you on that and it did , it did . But then also Christopher Reeve he went to Juilliard and when he took this project , when he accepted it , he treated it seriously and he did so much work to make sure that all the movement when he was flying , worked very hard to make sure that that and that's a lot of work to make sure it looked like he was flying and he took it seriously , like it was this big , serious role and I think that , along with the way Donner visioned it , that makes the movie If they were too silly about it , I mean , who knows and it set the tone for everything that followed .
Speaker 3Well , almost , but we'll get to that .
Speaker 1Okay , I say , spider-man 3 is silly .
Speaker 3I was just going to say , at least , if you're saying it , set the tone for every Superman after that . No , no , you're right ?
Speaker 1No , it set the tone for every Superman after that .
Speaker 3No , no , you're right . No , it set the tone for superhero movies .
Speaker 1Yeah , so that and Superman first was it was serials , they were shorts , right , and then they got more and more popular , and in the 50s
Christopher Reeve: The Original Superman
Speaker 1I could be wrong , it could be late 40s , but in the 50s I think the Superman was played by Christopher Reeves and he was one of those people . He became known for the role and couldn't get work outside of that which has happened at , like you know , william Shatner and Christopher Plummer and a lot of people , where you have a hard time with your career afterwards , and then there's a whole documentary on it .
Speaker 1I strongly suggest checking it out . It's very interesting . The official story is he committed suicide , but when you look back at it it really does look like somebody murdered the man . Oh dear , yeah , very sad .
Speaker 3Not to get conspiratorial apparently .
Speaker 1No , no , but that's what documentaries are for .
Speaker 2True , to spread conspiracy theories .
Speaker 1To make you question history ? Oh , okay .
Speaker 3Do you know what the opposite of Christopher Reeve was ?
Speaker 1Oh no .
Speaker 3Christopher Walken oh , so bad you did that .
Speaker 4Boo Beautiful .
Speaker 1Also another great documentary , the Christopher Reeve Superman documentary . Oh sure I haven't seen it yet . Oh my god , you'll cry . It's beautiful , um , yeah , like I think when he's interviewed before the accident , he's like I'm not a hero , I just play one . And I think a hero is somebody who does an act of heroism without thinking of the consequences , and that was his definition .
Speaker 1And then , after the , accident when he brings awareness to all these people who go unseen and raises money for funding and changes people's lives with his activism and puts a face on something that people weren't talking about . He says I think I've seen real heroes and they're people . They're ordinary people . I don't . I don't think I'm quoting this correctly . So watch the movie , cause it's really good . All right , yeah , but yeah . But it's one of the things about Superman why Reeve is my favorite because Superman , he's optimism , he's humanity , can move forward and be better . He's just . Batman is dark and depressing , but Superman is okay . I'm sorry he's not okay , he's cool . I'm not gonna say he's not cool but he's a tortured soul .
Speaker 2John really hasn't said anything . Well , I mean , and here's the thing he gets defensive I do , because in our house it's like a lot .
Speaker 1Well , I mean , and here's the thing he gets defensive , I do because in our house it's like a lot of people you know have Cub fans , sox fans , packer fans Bear fans . In our house we are Superman and Batman , and that is . That divide has happened .
Speaker 2I love that you're even dressed appropriately , you're wearing blue and he's wearing black .
Speaker 1Yes , Now we're really really really dark gray . Our kids All right , so something sweet to be done about your kids . Sorry , 14 months . How much did she drink I ?
Speaker 3don't know . I just finished hers that Waterloo is hitting her real hard .
Speaker 1Okay , okay , okay . So we're just about 14 months old and somebody gave her oh no , I know it was Morgan Morgan . Yeah , morgan , she gave us these DC Fisher price superhero little figures and they're adorable , and there was Superman and there was green lantern and wonder woman and Batman and . Batman and Joker , joker and bat girl and Robin , because Batman always works alone , except when he has an entourage .
Speaker 3Anyway , and he was also the only villain was Joker . So again , anyway .
Speaker 1So here's the thing we have this totally innocent child and we open up the package and we put them all out in front of her and she looks at them and she's so excited and I think the first thing she's going to do is pick up one of them and just stick it in her mouth because she's teething , right , sure , but no , not our daughter . She picks up Superman and Batman .
Speaker 3Wait no , first she picked up .
Speaker 1Green .
Speaker 3Lantern and hawked him across the room . Then she picks up Superman and Batman .
Speaker 2And Ryan Reynolds would have appreciated that .
Speaker 1Exactly . She's like no , you don't belong . And then she makes up Batman and Superman and she looks at them and then she makes them fight .
Speaker 3She starts hitting them together .
Speaker 1We're like oh my God , how do you know this ? And then she chose Superman .
Speaker 3Yeah , she chose Superman . And took him with her upstairs eight months , at eight months old , crawled all the way .
Speaker 1No I said 14 months , I don't know . No , no , I feel like we've had this discussion .
Speaker 3It was raining , it was sunny . She's eight months old she was crawling and she took it . She , it was the first time . She made it from the main floor all the way to the second store and she did it while holding Superman in her hand and Trisha was like ha ha , John , and I'm like Batman's cooler .
Speaker 1And he has so many accessories .
Speaker 3Yep , all right , michael , who's your Superman ? An hour later , we're already at act two .
Speaker 1Why did you not stop me from talking ?
Speaker 2I'm sorry actually I can't give you my answer because we're out of time . You know it's a tough one , it's an unpopular answer , but I need to preface that it is just one movie . I know that there's a lot of in this room displeasure with man of Steel . Okay , your disclaimer is noted , thank you , but I really enjoyed man of Steel . I don't love necessarily that style of filmmaking but I really got invested in the story , how it builds up to Superman having to do this horrendous , awful thing , I felt was what really totally breaks him and what I thought would make for an interesting story moving forward .
Speaker 2We never got to see that story moving forward because of where zach snyder decided to take things you mean martha , martha , oh my god , your mother's name is martha too . We should stop fighting and be friends . I laughed so hard , I peed I . I couldn't believe what I was watching . I couldn't believe it .
Speaker 3This was a funnier die , like you know feature length .
Speaker 2But I thought it was interesting because it took that character to a place that definitely was much darker than what we had seen .
Speaker 1It was a bold choice .
Speaker 2And I think it would have been interesting to see what happened with that character as it was told in that story . Agreed , but it never proceeded . It became something entirely different . But anyway , so that's my answer . I really enjoyed Henry Cavill's performance as Superman and Clark Kent .
Speaker 3Yes , I believe that Henry Cavill is possibly my Superman in the sense that , like I very much liked you know what he was attempting to do . I feel that I kind of agree with Trish in the sense that , to me , man of Steel and pretty much anything that Cavill was sadly in and I say sadly in because pretty much anything that Cavill was sadly in , and I say sadly in because I felt that their attempt at Superman was to make him Batman .
Speaker 1Yeah , because Batman makes all the money . I get where the money people went there they were trying to do the dark and the- .
Speaker 2I feel like , yeah , after man of Steel , they were like , oh wait , we've already made Superman , batman , who's Batman ?
Speaker 3gonna be Robocop Martha , anyway . But like , oh wait , we've already
James Gunn's DCU Approach
Speaker 3made Superman Batman . Who's Batman going to be Robocop Martha , anyway . But like , so to me you know the hard thing for me is it is sad that in Batman and Superman , of all the characters , ben Affleck was the one that you're like way to go . Plot twist Very much anticipated you being the weakest link . Way to step that motherfucker up , man Right .
Speaker 1Okay , but if we're going to go into that universe , I watched the Flash movie simply because it had my favorite Batman , michael Keaton , and he's so good .
Speaker 2Oh , he's so good , he's so good . I will defend the flash completely . I enjoyed the hell out of that I did enjoy it personally and I went into it thinking it was going to be martha more more martha I really enjoyed the storytelling and how self-contained the movie was , while bringing in a multiverse of everything Right and I felt like it achieved that in a very enjoyable way .
Speaker 3of steel specifically is I did not appreciate that superman did not try to minimize damage , or or you know , take , take , take the bad guys out of the mass populace areas . Let's leave metropolis , yeah like , whereas , like one of the things that we , you know , was so entertaining , possibly too entertaining and too neatly convenient in the , the movie that that you know , the 2025 is the fact that everybody makes it out of metropolis as metropolis is . Is is crumbling , and there's one building that's going to land on a car and he manages to stop that .
Speaker 1It's like okay , well , yeah , they didn't show you all the people that died obviously no , they didn't .
Speaker 3And then , uh like , like that's the thing is , it's like I understand that there is going to be casualties when you have like large , uh , super humans doing things , but at the same time , one of the things that makes you know , like I always say , superman's kind of a boy scout , is the fact that , like to me , he still even as , like you know , an American prop or a government lackey or Boy Scout he would try to minimize as opposed to Because he's a good person .
Speaker 1Yes , yes .
Speaker 2And that was the one thing that really irked me about Man's Deal , oh yeah , and that falls into the category of the style that I don't appreciate , which is just like mass destruction , right , like OK , I get taking Superman into like a , like just a dark interpretation .
Speaker 1I mean I did like that Lois Lane had figured it out like that and that was amazing , but I did not care for the fact that he was so dark and depressed . He's supposed to be hope and inspiration and be a nice guy , and here he's really depressed . And now I'm depressed and it was just dark .
Speaker 2I wonder to be entirely honest , because you only saw the movie once . Right , I did . Yeah , I think that he's not depressed . I've seen the movie multiple times . He's not depressed .
Speaker 2He's more , yes , dark and mysterious and brooding , but that's also because he's living in like a , a modern world and trying to hide and a lot of that is stemming from this relationship with his father , where his father kept trying to hide him because he was like the world isn't ready for you , Right ? And he was trying to teach him . I think that that's actually one of the biggest things . It's like he's trying to teach him how to be better oh from dexter how to teach him to be better than humans , like be the best best of us , be better than us , and so , anyway , I don't know , I , I , I didn't see it as I don't , I want to watch it again .
Speaker 1I do , I want to watch it again , because to me it's like not , that's not my , whatever , not my uh , james bond or my batman , like people we were talking about this earlier how people have their favorite incarnation of a very well-known pop culture character , whether it be Superman or Batman or the Doctor , yes , or Doctor who .
Speaker 3I would even say that people have their favorite Star Trek .
Speaker 1Oh God , yes , oh for sure , yeah , for sure .
Speaker 3I think for me it's next gen only because I grew up on it more , but then I loved the original , but Next Gen was the one I watched more often .
Speaker 1I have ones that I like more and I have ones that I don't like as much .
Speaker 4And then I have ones that I'm like . I love that they're .
Speaker 1And there are ones that I'm like I love that . And there are ones that I'm like I love you so much because you don't have to fall in the lineup of the rest , like Lower Decks . Lower Decks , just its own thing , it is amazing .
Speaker 3All right , so I think , now that we've divulged into previous ones , I honestly do have to say that I was extremely surprised and delighted by the 2025 James Gunn Agreed . I can honestly say that its mixture of comedy and heart and hope and very interesting juxtapositions of literal modern day shite was amazing . I think possibly the funniest thing I have seen on the big screen in a while is the heartfelt scene between Clark and Lois , where they're essentially having a fight , they're having a dispute , and in the background is the other heroes attacking a giant space imp or something like that .
Speaker 2That is just like I've got this , just yeah do you need to know ? No , they're fine , but like they're having this whole conversation and you just doesn't she like bring him some coffee or some tea or something , and he just like sits down and just relaxes ?
Speaker 3And that fight goes on in the background for so freaking long and I just I laughed harder and harder and harder . I probably pissed off a lot of people who were in the theater around me Trying to hear the dialogue . Trying to either hear their dialogue or just being like dude . It is not that funny and I have to digress . It was that funny and more .
Speaker 1But it's true when you think about it . In this universe you have all these different superheroes and yet you know we only usually follow one . Maybe there's one itty-bitty crossover cameo . But , usually it's one character's story and the rest of them are not there . It's like the rule of only one bad guy can attack you at a time , except when they decide to bring like three , and then they were in the movie , but like that's this thing where it's the unspoken rule that they shouldn't overlap too much .
Speaker 4And .
Speaker 1I think I like what he did with this . It's like here I'm going to give you the mess of the world , but we're going to focus on our story . But it's in the background , because that's this world they have superheroes .
Speaker 2And they are corporate . Yeah , and the way that that was introduced I thought at the very , very start of the movie was just brilliant . Like what is it from 300 years ago to three minutes ago ?
Speaker 4Yeah , it's like 30 years ago , three years ago , boom yeah .
Speaker 2And I had no idea that that was going to be the start of the movie . No , exactly it was just the start of the trailer all the time . But whoa , I was going to be the start of the movie , no , exactly the trailer all the time . But yep , whoa , I was like , oh , okay , you've got me , that's the hook , yeah , right I'm sold .
Speaker 3I understand what's going on and like I will state that , like leading up to there was all these you know commercials and and all and and it had you know green lanterns , it had crypto , it had this monster , it had this beast , it had you know this villain and I'm like like I got panicky , because what we've learned from the MCU is when you jam pack a bunch of new characters in one movie you lose story Because you're focusing on everybody , and Gunn managed to not only juggle it , but juggle it masterfully .
Speaker 1But then he did that with Guardians , because Guardians had all these different characters . Nobody knew them . True and we had to introduce them all and give them weight and that's hard to do very few stories right very few stories have that play off well and and are able to do that and yeah , like so . I had faith that he'd be able to do it , but yeah , the trailers made me go . Oh no , you didn't fall for , like the Spider-Man 3 thing where we have to throw everything in the kitchen sink .
Speaker 3No , he did a masterful job at handling that . I was very pleased .
Speaker 2Mr Fantastic Yep . What a fascinating character that . I know really nothing about , yep , and I want to know more , but I felt like I got enough . It's like he gives you just the right amount of each character , and then Hawkgirl I mean really all of them . They give you just enough of a taste of each character to get a really good essence of them and leave you wanting more from that character , and the only reason why we get more of Mr Fantastic is because he's the one that steps up and goes along with Lois .
Speaker 3That's it because you just get a little bit more time with him , but you get time with him serving the story that's being told about Superman , not because , we're gonna just focus on until this side character , until the rest of them do help become a quasi deus , deus ex machina , in the sense that , you know , superman can't be in two places at once and , good news ,
Superman 2025: A Fresh Take
Speaker 3we've already established characters so he doesn't need to be . You know , he can call up his , his buddies , to help out and also just showing , like , the difference . They are trying to knock the crap out of this monster and don't care if there's casualties . If there is , you know , uh , damage to buildings , people or other , and you know he's sitting there then trying to clean up behind them you know and and do it , and like he doesn't want , he's like can we ?
Speaker 1we don't have to kill the monster , yeah , we can just relocate him . And they're like what ? No ?
Speaker 2yeah , you're like oh , you're so funny superman whatever yeah , but they yeah , james gunn mentioned there was one sequence that was part of a scene that he refused to cut , that test audiences were like it's got to go and I am so glad he didn't cut it and it's in the middle of that scene . It's when he saves the squirrel . Oh , he saves the squirrel People were like why the hell is Superman saving a squirrel ?
Speaker 3I mean , don't get me wrong , the squirrel people were like why the hell is superman saving us ?
Speaker 2I mean I said the same thing , but at the same time I was like oh , it's cute , it's cute , it's funny , it's like it's multiple things . It's cute , it's funny and it's also helps serve that character yeah , even the smallest life , to exactly it's it's in that one action it goes beyond .
Speaker 3I'm saving humans , it's all life , and that that was the thing , that that you know . Again we go back to man of steel . It's like none of none of these buildings had to die right well right , the millions of people in them especially , but the buildings right well , and um in , uh .
Speaker 1In this one they make a big deal of being like , hey , up here , up here , and then he gets you know . It's like look at all these people we're gonna hurt in this big building over here , over here I'm over here um , but uh , the other thing is lois lane . If we're gonna have a favorite lois lane , this is my favorite it's . It's it . The the part of her that is the reporter is the most authentic I , I think .
Speaker 1I've seen and there's just a lot of depth and nuance that not only the script brings but the actress brings , and then their relationship is great . But it's like , yeah , this Lois Lane was amazing , amy was good .
Speaker 3Amy brought a lot of spot .
Speaker 1Oh , I agree , but Rachel .
Speaker 3Brosnahan like yeah , and Margot Kidder was amazing , Amy was good , Amy brought a lot of spot . Oh , I agree . Rachel Brosnahan like yeah , and Margot Kidder was great .
Speaker 1But I really don't have complaints about Lois . This is my favorite .
Speaker 3Very pleased with James . I think that he might actually pull it off when it comes to what I believe I've said this on any number of podcasts whenever the MCU comes up is the fact that the MCU is is starting to crest . It's , it's , it's a wave that I feel is breaking , and it it you know well , they have some great stuff , but yeah , but James Gunn's DCU has an opportunity to be the wave that goes over the top and rides it out yeah because which will only give the mcu time to potentially reconfigure and do the exact same thing , and if the two just sit there and continue to lap .
Speaker 3Because he's learned a lot from just from also working in in the mcu
Speaker 2yeah but from , from you know , being the first , first one through to do this really long form , multi-feature film storytelling . You can't just tell a story that , yes , when you look back on it five years later , that it only feels like it's there to serve the next bigger story as opposed to his approach with this is every film is going to have its own , its own feel , its own , its own story , and it's going to be its story and , yes , there will be a bigger story , but they're not going to do like these tidbits yeah yeah , it's about which one's ready .
Speaker 1next right , start it here's one of the things that I think is interesting with dcu , um and mcu from , okay , from the original dc , what ed , whatever , um , I want to say edu and like , nope , it's not education but bg . Before gun , um , that form , uh , how they had a lot of problems trying to . It's like they were playing catch up .
Speaker 1They were trying to do what mcu was doing right and they kept sputtering out and I was like , uh , I wanted to get in the room with the , the bosses , I wanted to be in the room where it happens , you know . And I wanted to be like guys , you can't catch up , that's dumb . You're already this far behind because of time . You know what would really serve you . Well , you have these TV shows . They are good TV shows . Like , what you need to do is bring them all together in a movie . You want to do that . Then you've got that , then you can catch up .
Speaker 3You've also got the fan base .
Speaker 1You've already got the fan base You've already built up . You have crossovers in the shows . Now would that have worked ? Maybe , maybe not it definitely would have been better than what happened in my mind , because I've decided that Don't you knock Martha . But if they had listened to me , we would never have had Martha .
Speaker 3And I mean , come on , that's important , it's true , the Martha , you , we need that , the Martha you , martha , moments the Martha .
Speaker 2Cinematic Universe , the MCU , in .
Speaker 1DCU . So true , but then so their problem was storytelling . They couldn't get the stories to get together . They had problems with storytelling . Meanwhile , marvel storytelling oh , so great . But the problem with that is reality . Actors phase out , pass away Things , take directions that they can't anticipate , and then their story gets all like oh , pass away Things , take directions that they can't anticipate , and then their story gets all like oh , crud . We were going to solve that over here , but now I've got to throw it over here and the rewrite they're writing while they're filming and it's becoming like they've lost control of the story . It's gotten away from them and what Gunn seems to be doing is taking it back to character and really , without characters there is no story right . And this was such a great revision , re-envisioning of Superman , and it leans a lot . It does a lot with the comics , which I love .
Speaker 3We're going to take a few minutes to refill our glasses and get ready to imbibe more after this .
Speaker 4The Blue Whiskey Independent Film Festival exhibits short and feature-length motion pictures that utilize story elements in a new and exciting way . Our official selections are a carefully assembled blend of imaginative , sophisticated and full-bodied stories . This is what our name represents BWIF audiences expect to experience character-driven , independent cinema that is fueled by the filmmakers' passion for the art of visual storytelling . Filmmakers can expect an intimate festival experience where their personal story is valued as much as the one projected on the big screen .
Lex Luthor: A Memorable Villain
Speaker 3I'm Jonathan Seelight , and I'm here along with Trisha Leggett and .
Speaker 2Michael Nowens .
Speaker 3And we are discussing Superman . The 2025 one , at least , is what ?
Speaker 1we landed on . Is that what its name is ?
Speaker 3It's just be Superman 2025 .
Speaker 1I feel like everybody says that Superman Well it's Superman , but like when you , it's the one that came out in 2025 .
Speaker 2Yeah exactly .
Speaker 3You have to give it the qualification of that , in the sense that that way they know which one you're talking about .
Speaker 2Well , and I'm sure it'll be like the gun Superman , the Donner Superman , depending on who you're talking to Donner party of five .
Speaker 3Join this podcast . Please subscribe or follow us on your favorite podcast providers to get the new episodes as soon as we release them , and you can also follow imbibe cinema on Facebook , Instagram and threads . Do you have a comment ? Look for the link to the text in our show notes and we'll make sure during the next podcast to answer the question . We'll say something inflammatory enough that the trolls will come after us maybe it might be this episode .
Speaker 2It could be all the snyderverse people are gonna be like what the fuck ?
Speaker 3I love martha , the marthaematic Universe . Don't you destroy my MCU , all right . So right before the break Trick , you were about to start discussing cinema and comics .
Speaker 1Yes , the switch in the medium and stories , when they are told in different mediums , are told differently .
Speaker 2That will be an official podcast quote .
Speaker 1Okay . So here's the thing . No , we all know this . You can't put a novel in a movie . It doesn't work . Everybody gets angry .
Speaker 2No , you do a limited series .
Speaker 1Yes , you do , you can do them in the series and then people kind of get what they need out of it , right , because then you can spend 12 hours , right ?
Speaker 1So the comics do like what the movies do over time , where you will have like this OK , we've fought all the monsters we fought them together and then we kind of like reach an apex and then we run out of steam and then we have to reinvent and reboot and reimagine and start again and it takes a while , and I think we I just saw somebody comment on this and how it's like , yes , and that's what the movies do , except they do it and it costs a lot more money . So here's the thing that I like is that stories that go back to canon like when they rebooted Star Trek , they were like , all right , we're going to put the red shirt in , so you know who's going to die on this mission . We're going to put in something for people who love this and know it well , so they can go . Ah , I see what you did , but then all of us who have no idea can enjoy it , and we don't need that .
Speaker 2Right .
Speaker 1And I think what Gunn does is he incorporates stuff from the comics that a lot of us didn't know , but we don't need to know . Just like crypto comes from the comics , and also crypto is inspired by James Gunn's dog , yeah , who is described as a bad dog , just a bad dog , not like a mean dog , just a bad behaved dog .
Speaker 2They did a full scan of his dog , and so that is a digital version of james gunn's dog and I love that .
Speaker 1It's just a dog , it's a .
Speaker 2It's a dog that has not been trained well well , because like , how can you train a super dog ?
Speaker 1Right , and how much pain that dog causes Superman .
Speaker 3Oh my God , Superman , mr Fantastic , he doesn't hurt . No , no , no , no .
Speaker 1I love that we all get that moment to realize wait , that's a ball , oh no .
Speaker 4No , no , no , no , no , no Wait that's a ball .
Speaker 3Oh , no , oh shit , no , no , no , no , no , no , come back , come back come back .
Speaker 2Yeah , but he's just a dog and I do enjoy that . You don't really know the situation with Crypto . Yes , there's just this really kind of bizarre reference at one point where he's like .
Speaker 4It's a foster situation . And you're like wait what .
Speaker 1All right , we'll put a pin in that , but you better explain that later . And then they do yes , um , and it makes so much , so much sense and I love how everybody's like you have a dog like how do we know he ? Really cares about that dog and then like how you contain a dog like that and it involves cgi squirrels literally trying to exhaust with cgi squirrels that also have superman capes oh my god , lex was dark yeah now I mean I know a lot of us can't think that a billionaire would get crazy and go psychotic in the world .
Speaker 3You know , it's one of those things that I'm just I'm willing to . Suspension of disbelief absolutely .
Speaker 2I mean far fetched , but yeah , we went along that journey .
Speaker 1We went with that right , but he does such a great job oh he's , he's my , he's my favorite honestly .
Speaker 2Yes , yeah , At the end of the movie I mean I very much enjoyed the whole thing , but as time goes on it's his performance is just . I'm sure I will get more out of it on a second viewing .
Speaker 4But having only seen it once .
Speaker 2I was very unexpectedly engaged in the Lex Luthor journey .
Speaker 3Yeah , and he did such an amazing job of ramping . Um , I mean you , you took his path and and , uh , you know it's one of those situations they always say you know the kick , kick the cat save the cat , save the cat the kick the cat when he ends up killing the falafel guy it was just like oh shit .
Speaker 2And his reaction to it . Oh , I really thought that was going to go on .
Speaker 3It's going to last longer ?
Speaker 2Yeah , oh well , you're like , you are fucking evil .
Speaker 1Yeah .
Speaker 2And I will say that about James Gunn too is his villains .
Speaker 3Yeah .
Speaker 2He does a really great job with villains .
Speaker 1Yeah , In the past , when it comes to the villains like Gene Hackman's , Lex Luthor was more comical . Yes , he was more like . He was more , yeah , he was more like if Batman had an Adam , one of Adam West's villains he was . He wasn't as scary as he was entertaining .
Speaker 2Exactly .
Speaker 1Yeah .
Speaker 3I mean , he had some great ideas but , yes , he was more about camp and comedy than he was about menacing and manipulative . I mean , he gave Christopher Reeve a number of interesting choices where it was like , you know , he actually was outsmarting him in the sense that he'd put two different things in two completely different areas , being like oh and like I'm . I'm not waxing poetics or monologuing , they actually are about to hit , like right now , like this is not , like I'm launching in a few minutes , like no , it's already too late . You , I'm launching in a few minutes , like no , it's already too late . You know , I mean , he was , he was being smarter then . And then who knew that ? You know , Superman could be a jerk and rewind time .
Speaker 1Yeah , but only enough to save Lois , not everybody else .
Speaker 2No , correct , because that's how Superman ends right , with him flying around the world . The , the 1978 yeah , yeah and that's one of the things . Just as a
Comics to Cinema Translation
Speaker 2reference , that's one of the things that was filmed , but it was for superman 2 , not superman superman had a totally different ending . That was the end of superman , or part of Superman 2 .
Speaker 3This is really interesting , and that's why .
Speaker 2Superman 2 , I think , also ends the exact same way , or something similar . No , it's a repeat , so anyway .
Speaker 1Maybe that's why I don't remember the end of the movie .
Speaker 4Sure .
Speaker 2Just balancing the ensemble . I think it just really goes to speak towards james gunn , the way that he balances his ensemble against his villain . Um yeah , they're just very memorable . I mean , immediately , what comes to mind is , um , you know , volume two , uh , guardians . Volume two , uh , guardians volume two , I feel like Kurt Russell's villain as his father is just almost unmatched . It's just , you really are invested in that conflict .
Speaker 4Yeah .
Speaker 2And it's very internal . You know , yeah , um , as a viewer , it's personal , it feels very personal , oh yeah , and he finds a way to do that .
Speaker 1It feels very personal . Oh yeah , and he finds a way to do that .
Speaker 2Not in a Martha way , not in a Martha way , but he finds a way of doing that .
Speaker 3All of this is long past . We know that Lex and Superman whether Superman's necessarily aware of it their feud has been going on for a while , at least in Lex's head .
Speaker 2Oh yeah , and the fact that he's got all of his moves categorized into a whole index of . He knows every move he's going to make before he makes it . Just that whole introduction of Lex and him just calling out these moves . You're like , oh man .
Speaker 1Well , and it's one of those things like , as humans we can , you can obsess about something you love or you can obsess about something you hate , and how dark that gets Like your whole world is about one thing and it's something you hate , and that that's just like , and you don't see it because you're so focused , you're so down that rabbit hole yeah , um , I was gonna say , uh , I do appreciate is that superman's parents are , uh , his adopted parents are both alive , like um and , and they're adorable yes they are so adorable .
Speaker 1I love how it's like every , every set of parents ever . It's like they're calling , he's not getting back to them . They're like they've left him like 20 voicemails and they're like we don't want to bother you , but are you okay ?
Speaker 3neva howell and pruitt taylor vince yeah , they were .
Speaker 1They were both fantastic , yep yeah , but then , uh , you also have like uh a , uh a birth father villain kind of thought . It's like wow , now you brought up star lord's origin .
Speaker 3I'm like huh absentee father , not good bad person and I'm trying to recall , and , and you know , I , I , whether it's you know , age or whatnot . I don't recall whether or not um , the , the message from their you know , his birth parents was to rule over , or if that was just this interpretation I think it was just .
Speaker 1I don't know my understanding .
Speaker 2Yeah , I don't know either , but my understanding is this was his interpretation and it was a , a , very for for jarring yeah but it doesn't , and and I think the reason why is because you know , I think I read something about how he was like it doesn't fundamentally change the character . In fact , it helps fuel who ?
Speaker 1that character is , and I want to know more about Supergirl . I want to be like what do you know ? Right . What's going on .
Speaker 3That's another good point , actually , because , yeah , you would think she would know more or be different .
Speaker 2Am I understanding this correctly , that Supergirl is actually ?
Speaker 1older yes .
Speaker 2Yes and so she was like in cryo or something like that , right .
Speaker 3Yeah , something happened to her pod . She was supposed to be sent along with him , right ? And she was like six or I mean she was definitely older . He was an infant newborn .
Speaker 2So where she was like more frozen in time while he grew up on Earth , and then , yeah , Her pod .
Speaker 3Something happened to her pod and it did not make the journey quickly , whereas he landed and was raised , she lands later and is still , you know , roughly the age she was , which she was , and I recall watching a super girl , the original movie with with Peter O'Toole , and it was .
Speaker 1It's funny Cause it's one of those things where it's like I saw it when I was a kid and I was like , oh , Supergirl , and then I saw it with the girls and I hadn't . I saw it once as a kid , Right . So there's a whole bunch that I don't remember , but it is one of those things like where you hear something you haven't heard since you were a child or whatever , and it brings you back immediately to like this emotional time travel , to like oh , I am now eight for 30 seconds and then poop and I'm back .
Speaker 4Yeah , yeah , yeah .
Speaker 1And yeah , so that happened . I was like , wow , I appreciated Peter Ochoa so much for a child because he's the only one I remember from the movie .
Speaker 4Although it's he left an impression . He did .
Speaker 1I felt bad for him . It doesn't go well for him . All right , are we poking the bear now ?
Speaker 3sure , oh yeah , let's , let's , let's bear that poke all right .
Speaker 2So , um , this film , at the time of this recording this film had an 83 percent uh , rotten tomato um score . Uh , after 466 reviews , it's got a 91% popcorn rating , which is the audience . So the first one is from FilmSpotting . And they say I could never quite reconcile James Gunn's glibness and goofiness with his sadistic streak Interesting , I need more , right . Well , he has made two movies come to mind that I've seen , that I can understand this okay um , uh , he did a uh , I think .
Speaker 2I think it might have been his first comic book movie , but it was with rain , wilson um and it was called super um and it is fucked up I remember I watched the boys um , possibly I've never watched the boys . Oh , it's dark , um , but uh , it is really . Uh , it's an uncomfortable watch , um , uh , but anyway , he directed that that um and uh it was . It was an indie film , for sure .
Speaker 4Yeah .
Speaker 2And so it was Rainn Wilson and , I believe , um .
Speaker 3Elliot Page , Luke Tyler , Kevin Bacon .
Speaker 2Wow , yeah , good cast . And I would say uh . From my memory of it , I could see the word sadistic , uh , from my memory of it , I could see the word sadistic , um , uh . But more recently , um , volume three , um was a very , for me , a very uncomfortable viewing because of the animal cruelty . Um , I , I really respect what he was trying to do and I think he did do that . I just wasn't , I wasn't prepared for it and I was very uncomfortable with it , and I think that that was the point . So , anyway , when I , when I was reading this , I saw it as the reviewer was really like having issue with how do you , how do you , how do you have these two things that are like polar opposites and yet it doesn't gel for them .
Speaker 1It doesn't gel for them where it works for other people .
Speaker 3Okay , to that end , I could see that the argument that I would make , and one that I feel is necessary
Critics' Takes and Final Thoughts
Speaker 3as somebody who tries to do this , this kind of art In the theater , in the theater or films , In the cinema .
Speaker 1What is it ? Oh , is it Superman ? Back to the Reeve one His teacher said you know , don't do big movies Like in Juilliard . He's like don't do these movies Like you want to do . You do serious work . You do serious work because you're a serious actor and you have the talent . And you do serious work unless they pay you a lot of money .
Speaker 4Oh yeah .
Speaker 3And that worked out . And that worked out . That was an interesting bear . Is there another bear ?
Speaker 2Oh , yeah , yeah , yeah , all right . So the Beverly Hills Courier says call me old fashioned , you're old-fashioned . Call me old-fashioned , but I like a story with a beginning , middle and end with characters I can root for and those I can boo . Filling the screen with robots and hideously unappetizing hybrid lizard monsters doesn't work for me I find it interesting , unappetizing thank you , that is the word that I was stuck with too I had to read it while you're watching .
Speaker 2I had to read it multiple times to make sure that it wasn't a different word , but it was appetizing , and so that's why I want to know , I want to know what an appetizing monster they eat a lot of lizards .
Speaker 1Some appetizing lizard .
Speaker 2Are they like a reptile eater ? Maybe Like extra alligator all the time I ?
Speaker 3love that . It's extra alligator , Like you know . Not just a little bit oh no , I had my main course . Now I'm going to have some extra alligator .
Speaker 1There's like extra side , yeah , but when you tell this kind of story it is hard to make it have that like beginning , middle and and we're done like you have to have something that gives you closure and feel satisfied on some level . But these are stories that they're more like serials , like they've always been where and then the next adventure , and then next week when the next adventure , and they take place in a world full of adventures , so it's so full of them that you can have a you know spat with your significant other while a space intergalactic imp is in the background , is in the background you know being paddled
Speaker 2all right , last one is time magazine says sadly there's almost zero magic in james gunn's superman . It's special effects are more special effects are more overbearing than special . The plot is all problem solving and no poetry .
Speaker 3Wow wow , see , whereas I my my argument in that one uh is twofold uh , I'll go with the one . That was not the one that made me giggle , but I'll do that one in a second To me . The substance , you know , everything is in Lex Luthor . I mean , the poetry is in what he is doing . I mean he's masterfully done this and figured it all out . It's just .
Speaker 2The moment when the little nano things engulf him . I'm like oh yeah . Yeah , how do you ?
Speaker 3get out of this . I don't understand . How are you ?
Speaker 2going to you get out of this ? I don't , I don't understand how . How are you going to recover from this ? Yeah , and the , the , you know , fight for survival . Yeah , that defies all odds . Uh , yet makes sense . Yep , I was like oh yeah , yeah , I mean , and that's that's , that's like the end game . Lex is like right there on the verge of getting everything . He wanted .
Speaker 1Yep , I just want to sit down with this person and go tell me about your poetry . I want to know what film for you brings the poetry when it comes to this type of movie , because I'm not making fun . I'm like I get what they're saying in a way , but I do think it would be very interesting to know what . What is what works for them ? What ?
Speaker 2is that poetry um and because I can understand special effects being uh overbearing in a movie oh god , I mean , we talked about that with man of steel overbearing in a movie . Oh god , I mean , we talked about that with uh , man of steel overbearing , completely like it just overtakes the movie at the same time , I will state that of course there wasn't magic uh he's , he's a superhero not dr strange .
Speaker 4Um , yeah , not dr strange , that would be z for zatara yes , that is the dc .
Speaker 3Uh , you know magician slash wizard , um . So yeah , of course there wasn't any magic in this film . Real quick thing I want to say .
Speaker 1I love about superhero movies and superheroes .
Speaker 3What do you love about superhero movies and superheroes ?
Speaker 1Recently , I'm just going to point out math math mathing , math . I just love that math can win and that is amazing , like Spider-Man beats Dr Strange with math with math , math and that is amazing .
Speaker 2Like Spider-Man beats Doctor Strange With math . With math , math beats magic Done . This is just geometry . I can do this Right .
Speaker 1And then a film that I think is underrated is Lightyear , buzz Lightyear's origin story and in that he's a space cowboy and everything is going wrong with his re-entry and the computer is telling him to eject and everything is wrong and he's like , but he's , he knows better than computer , he's gonna do it on his own . What does he do ? He does a math . He does math emergency math on the , on the windshield , and then he saves the day . And I'm like I just love teaching kids that we can save the day using math . Really , it makes me cry . I'm so happy about it . I wish somebody had told me I could save the day with math , because I suck at math .
Speaker 3We greatly appreciate our listeners for choosing this podcast supporting independent film and the Blue Whiskey Independent Film Festival . I'm Jonathan Seelight , and thanks for imbibing with us , Cheers .
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